Jesus: Door, Gate, and Way … and More

church hondurasI pulled Dick Martin’s commentary off a funeral thread to discuss here.

Just a reminder for regular guests: please don’t use the posts on funerals, weddings, or reconciliation to pull things to a favorite topic. I have no problem peeling off a good question, or even a problematic (to me) comment to a separate thread. At least three-fourths of the traffic on this site come for wedding or funeral advice; I’d prefer they email me with a short essay or question. I will try to remember to put up a weekly open thread.

Anyway, Dick asked me about Jesus:

Todd; Why do you think Jesus is called the Door or the Gate or the Way? Some try to enter a different Way. Such as Keeping the 10 commandments or thinking the church sacraments will get them in. may be by the own self righteousness.

I had a discussion about this at an ecumenical conference many years ago. This is the tack many evangelical Christians take. I confess I’ve never heard the Ten Commandments sidelined like this. Most of my relations on my mother’s side are Baptists. I know that even though they number the Ten somewhat differently, they take them seriously as God’s Law.

As for the sacramental life, my friend Dick is barking up the wrong tree. There are some things in Catholicism where Jesus isn’t readily apparent. But the sacraments are definitely not included. Every Christian sacrament invokes Christ explicitly.

And yes, pelagianism, the notion that one can, by one’s own righteous actions, be saved. That’s settled theology for pretty much every Christian division today: not!

The Bible say’s that the 10 commandments are for unsaved people to show them they can’t keep the Law and from that you become a lost sinner. Sinners need a Savior because they can’t appease God. Only Jesus’s sacrifice appeases God . That’s why He is called the Door, Gate, Way. He is the only way in. The bible say’s that when you tell Him you accept His Payment for your Sins , it’s for past, present, and future Sin , then God applies God’s Righteousness to your account. Not everyone get this revelation and they walk the Wide road to destruction. Don’t jump off the cliff because everyone else is jumping. All of what I have shared with you is in the Catholic Bible. Love in Christ, Merry Christmas, Dick

And a blessed Advent and Christmas season to you, too, Dick. I think to have a fruitful discussion with Christians with whom one disagrees, it is absolutely essential to listen, and to get to know them.

As with many of my conversations with Atheist Max, I sometimes get the idea I’m on the end of an argument with some boogeyman that has emerged from some kid’s closet or who hides under the bed. I don’t recognize these caricatures as accurate or meaningful of either Catholics or of me personally.

Jesus didn’t preach explicitly about companionship as much as he gave startling examples of his willingness to listen to people. Jesus is the Door, the Gate, and the Way. But is also an open listener. If he were not so open, we sinners would have no hope.

I think out task on Earth as Christians is to go beyond citing his words. Even the pharisees and the devil did that. What they did not do, that Jesus did, was listen.

A strong disciple of Jesus will listen. She or he will listen when the time is inconvenient (Luke 11:5ff or John 3:2) and show great patience (more of John 3:2ff) and compassion (Luke 18:41) even when it is unpopular among her or his friends (John 4:27) or those in authority (John 9:24). A strong disciple may be able to quote the New Testament at will, but as the apostle suggested to the Corinthians (1, 13.1ff) without love, it doesn’t amount to much. Even martyrdom.

I don’t think what Dick writes in the comment boxes on this blog is terribly wrong. But the method pretty much reduces the sharing of Christian faith to an exchange of junk mail. Which is too bad, really. Because I think Christians have a lot of good things to chat about.

Image credit: my fellow blogger John Donaghy, a church in Honduras.

About catholicsensibility

Todd lives in Minnesota, serving a Catholic parish as a lay minister.
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114 Responses to Jesus: Door, Gate, and Way … and More

  1. Dick Martin says:

    All my commentary is pulled off the original blog. Then I have my comments referred to as junk Mail. The reason is that my comments are mostly quoting Scripture . Your views are based on Church doctrine.You rely on church doctrine over scripture; and I rely on the God’s Word 1st. Your not willing to see it’s God’s way. ( The WAY). The easiest way from point A. to point B. You’ll have to pay for that quote shortly. All scripture is Inspired by God. Instruction Book.
    2 Timothy 3:16-17
    All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
    that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. This says the Scripture is 1st. and Doctrine NEVER changes scripture . If doctrine contradicts scripture it is False and should not be. Notice: Scripture corrects, instructs, is profitable, makes Man complete, and equips for good works.

    • Todd says:

      Dick, your comments were pulled from the other pages because they were inappropriate to the intent, which is to assist people in planning for weddings or funerals. I’ve explained this openly. No need to pretend the story is different.

      Seems to me I quoted a lot more Scripture than you.

      You are welcome to comment here, or on open threads. But not to cloud the issue for people who are not looking for a Bible Christian to mishandle the Bible and tradition. If you have a specific topic you would like to explore with me, I suggest a private email.

  2. Dick Martin says:

    When I asked you About Jesus ; of which you didn’t answer. Obviously you don’t see the connection for Marriages and Funerals. Jesus is the Answer for couples entering Marriage. With out Him in their lives is like sitting on a stool with only two legs. You need a third leg for balance and stability which gives you rest. Without Jesus in your life you don’t have a chance for eternal life. I think there are a lot of Catholics who are looking for God to intervene in their unbalanced lives. The Bible says that those who use the Bible for Direction are led by the Spirit and those 1hr. a week supposable Christians can’t figure out the truths of God because they have to be spiritually discerned by born again people. That is why you call God’s word ” Junk Mail”. I am on this site for the benefit of the Readers not for you private interpretation. You may quote more ( out of context) scripture than I do, which is misleading your readers; the blind leading the blind. Have you not read in the scriptures that the 10 Commandments are call the Law of Death. The Law produces Sin. 1Tim.!-9 If you are Born Again you are not under the Law but under Grace.
    John 1:17
    For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

    • Todd says:

      Dick,

      You say and ask a lot of things in your posts. If you have a question, ask it, then duck. I see comboxes as conversations, not competing narratives. I’m the blog host here; not you. I get to narrate. If you want to preach to engaged couples or mourners, get your own blog. I’ll even link yours if you link mine.

      You get to tell other people you think I’m wrong. But not on every post where you think you might get attention. You get to do it on this thread. As a brother Christian, I get to say you are wrong, and in one corner of the blogoverse, Christian unity isn’t quite engaged. By the way, what you are engaging in does not count as evangelization or such in accord with Jesus’ mandate in Matthew 28:19-20. You have to go after non-believers. Not people who have a different approach to Christianity. Other Christians are art of the Church, are saved, are part of the gathering of believers, are your brothers and sisters. You and other Christians don’t get to declare them non-believers, unsaved, or such. That is for the Lord. Not you.

      And don’t get too upset about junk mail. I get things in my mailbox promoting very good material things. I just don’t want or need them. As for your personal interpretation of Scripture, people getting married or planning funerals don’t want them. You go off topic on your personal brand of evangelical Christianity. They don’t want that.

      You have had ample space to preach here. I’ve decided, with input from a few readers, that space is unwelcome on marriage, funeral, and reconciliation posts. If you disagree, fine. Get your own web site.

  3. Atheist Max says:

    Dick Martin,

    “With out Him [Jesus] in their lives is like sitting on a stool with only two legs.”

    Wrong. What a claim. Three is a crowd.

    There are thousands of reasons to believe Jesus is nothing but an imaginary phantom and
    whose claimed philosophies are profoundly destructive to love, intimacy and honesty.
    Jesus affects marriage
    in the same way cancer affects a child.

    It is no accident that the divorce rate of Christians is significantly higher than that of Atheists.*

    *Pew Research, Gallup Research

    • Todd says:

      Actually, Max, the divorce rate of Catholics and mainline Protestants is lower than that of those considered atheists. You are falling into the trap of our friend Dick, burnishing personal credentials at the expense of the truth. Atheists do better than young fundamentalists. But unlike Dick, I would consider Christianity to be a somewhat wider expanse.

      • Atheist Max says:

        “I would consider Christianity to be a somewhat wider expanse.”

        There are no checks and balances on what Christianity means. So you can imagine it to be whatever happens to fit your personal desires.

        But one can be sure that a marriage which includes commitments to an unaccountable, unknowable, unresponsive authority figure will have dramatically more conflict than a marriage without it.

        Everything improved in my own marriage of 28 years when my wife and I realized we were atheists – and our homelife is a pure joy without the burdens of trying to figure out what god would want out of us.

  4. Todd says:

    Perhaps so on the imagination point. But Max: you are the one who eliminated non-evangelical Christians from consideration when you made your statement about divorce rates.

    I applaud your good experience after Sandy Hook. Others of us find great spiritual benefit from a marriage that widens beyond just two, or even three persons. Human love is a powerful expansive force. Home alone just seems too limiting to me.

    Happy Christmas to you and yours, Max. May your home and community experiences enrich your experiences of life.

  5. Dick Martin says:

    Neither one of you seem to see the meaning of the third leg on the unbalanced stool of marriage. Max. rejects truth and Todd ignores the truth of God’s wisdom. both end up in the same cubicle.

    • Todd says:

      Funny about the cubicle remark, because I keep thinking I’m circling the same loop when I talk to either of you. Must be that our humanity is getting in the way of our religion or philosophy or whatever.

      It seems that people have contracted fruitful marriages outside of Christianity for millennia. I certainly think Jesus is indispensable to a sacramental marriage. But I also believe God has made many couples to fit in marriage. Because of the way we are made by God, we are designed for companionship. When a person surrenders as a partner, great things, even miracles, happen. Even if the people involved do not explicitly express faith in Christ. The Old Testament is pretty explicit on that.

      Let’s face it, my friend: neither you nor I have the last word on who is a Christian, who embraces God’s wisdom, or who has the best non-Biblical image of marriage.

      Either way, have a blessed Christmas, Dick.

  6. Dick Martin says:

    Jesus say’s,” I am the Way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me. No one can get into Heaven except through Jesus. Only One Way. pretty narrow minded wouldn’t you say. Can’t add another Way. Confession of you sins, daily, weekly, monthly, every year, is showing your non belief that Jesus did not die for your sins, and offering Mass as a flesh and blood sacrifice over and over is a lack of Faith in what Jesus accomplished. Jesus’s death put an END to sacrifices. One time, for everyone, forever. See Hebrews 10:10-12. We are able to see clearly who is a Christian or not. The Bible clearly shows Who you are not what you do. 1 Corth. 2; 10-14. Verse 15 says those who are born again can Judge ALL things. When you get on the train of life it seem everyone is getting on the right train. all the tracks seem parallel . down the line the tracks start to separate. and miles down the tracks you can’t see only those going to the same destination. curves in the track are not noticeable, your so busy doing other things. The End comes to fast that you can’t see what was so clear at the beginning. you have a free will to choose now but Death ends your Free Will. All this is very Narrow minded because the Bible is God’s instruction Book. It our nature to try to put things together with out reading the Instruction First. In Christ Jesus – Dick

    • Todd says:

      Confessing sins is about 1400 years old. And the command of Jesus was to “do this in memory of me,” and with regard to celebrating Mass, that goes back over nineteen centuries. Dick, you don’t show any real understanding of the sacramental life and how it centers on Jesus and inspires discipleship.

      Salvation in Christ has long inspired believers to respond in their lives, in charity and worship and other expressions of discipleship. Most of all, this includes the mandate of Matthew 28:19-20. Go and make disciples.

      Many Christians, Catholics and evangelicals alike, remain more self-focused: my Jesus, my salvation, and two unfortunate things happen: there seems to be little care for other people. And more, quite often a dismissal of how God leads people who are not me. How do you stand on Mark 9:40?

  7. Atheist Max says:

    Was Jesus born for the purpose of dying as a blood sacrifice to Yahweh?

      • Atheist Max says:

        So Jesus was murdered?

      • Todd says:

        Max, I think you know the story, right? Jesus was executed as part of a conspiracy of some of the religious leadership.

      • Atheist Max says:

        I do know the story of Jesus’ death. But I no longer understand the meaning of it.

        “The Lamb of God”, Jesus, was a sacrifice to Yahweh. His death and Resurrection was an important part of Yahweh’s plan to provide a Savior for Humanity. No other Savior ever existed and this would be the first and last, the totality – the Alpha and Omega.

        But if Jesus was murdered execution style not planned by God then Jesus did not come to save the world. Jesus’ death and everything that came afterwards including the Resurrection was not God’s plan – it was just an accident or a set of legends made up by men.

      • Todd says:

        I don’t see the Crucifixion as the entirety of Christ’s salvific act. I’m aware some Christians do, but I don’t agree with them.

  8. Dick Martin says:

    YES; Only Jesus; The perfect LAMB- Sacrificed Himself to God to cleans US for our Sins. Only His Perfect sacrifice satisfied God. Jesus took upon Himself our Sin and gave us His Righteousness.
    Hebrews 9:11-12
    But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
    Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
    Hebrews 9:11
    But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Thank you Jesus.

    • Atheist Max says:

      These are the options regarding the meaning of the Crucifixion:

      1. Jesus’ death was planned by God.
      Jesus was born to die as the Sacrificial Lamb of God – His blood was spilled out of his body for God to satisfy God’s rule of blood sacrifice. No other method would work – the torture and spilling of blood was necessary because spilling holy blood is the only workable way to save humanity.
      Question: How does spilling of blood save anyone?

      2. Jesus’ death on the cross was unplanned – an accident which God did not foresee.
      In which case Jesus was murdered execution style – he was sacrificed like a normal lamb would have been sacrificed – unwittingly and unwillingly. The use of this to humanity would be questionable in the same way the death of a real lamb would be of questionable use.
      Question: Why would spilling such blood save anyone?

      3. The whole story is a conflation of legends around suffering and what was believed at the time (2000 years ago) regarding what function blood had in the body.

      • Todd says:

        I would not agree these options are at all well-stated or necessarily accurate.

      • Atheist Max says:

        Todd,

        If Jesus died on the cross it seems important whether God planned it or not.
        Those are the only options I can see: Planned or unplanned.
        What option am I missing?

      • Todd says:

        You fail to acknowledge free will of human beings, that we can make mistakes, or deliberately choose to commit evil acts. Your logic fails utterly.

        An example: I note that my daughter is not studying for a test. I may have an experience of repeatedly reminding her, and I may choose to temper or withhold my reminder on a specific occasion. She does poorly on the test: I can predict that result. I might even expect it. But I did not cause it.

        Likewise with your conversion experience–why I and many Christians find it wholly lacking in logic. God certainly through the Bible, the saints, through virtuous people, has stated clearly that the murder of innocents is wrong, and heinous in the sight of God and mortals. And yet it happened.

        It was not planned by God. But we can certainly say in hindsight that given American ignorance and apathy about mental health and access to guns it was not a surprise. It may have been predictable in the sense that somebody else was going to do it, if not that particular murderer in that particular place.

        You’re not catching all the options, and stating some quite badly: that’s what I see.

      • Atheist Max says:

        Todd,

        “It was not planned by God.”

        I’ll have to think about that.
        God supposedly has a master plan. Everything happens as part of that plan if God/Jesus is to be victorious. Right up to Armageddon (supposedly).

        But if free will allows us to ignore God’s plan to the point where we can eliminate it from our lives entirely, free will must come from a different source. We are engaged in a reality whereby we can alter God’s plan with incredible ease.

        Is the destruction of God’s plan part of his plan? Is that even rational?

      • Todd says:

        Master plan? Do you mean a blueprint in which people have no freedom to vary from God’s will? It would seem that this takes any culpability out of the equation, if taken to the other extreme.

        Perhaps it means that individual human dissent from God’s plan is irrelevant in the big picture of the universe. My sense is that free will comes from the individual person. That individual person can alter God’s plan for her or him. Drastically. But it will have no effect on universal salvation.

    • Atheist Max says:

      Dick Martin,

      “YES; Only Jesus; The perfect LAMB- Sacrificed Himself to God to cleans US for our Sins. Only His Perfect sacrifice satisfied God….WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.”

      I have so many questions!

      So you believe the blood of Jesus is how God cleans us OF SIN?
      But how does the blood of Jesus work? Didn’t his blood function in his body exactly as it does in our bodies?

      1. Please explain what made the blood of Jesus holier than the blood of anyone else.
      2. What is the property of ‘Holy’ blood that makes it special?
      3. What does GOD SEE in HOLY blood that he does not see in OUR blood?
      4. How does the blood of 2000 years ago help us since that blood dried up long ago?
      5. How did the spilling of blood onto soil ‘satisfy’ god?
      6. In what way did the spilling of Jesus’ blood make God happy?
      7. What does God get out of Jesus’ spilling his blood?
      8. How does it SATISFY God to see the blood spilled?
      9. What other Gods in history demanded blood? Why not believe in those gods too?
      10. Why were Jesus’ hands, legs or feet less important to god than his blood?

  9. Dick Martin says:

    When you confess your sin you admit that you are practicing Lawlessness. If you are born Again you do not Sin because you are IN Him.
    1 John 3:4-9
    Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
    And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
    Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
    Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
    He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
    Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. This is of the age of Grace (Paul’s Revelation). Hidden in the Old Testament and the 4 Gospels.
    Hebrews 8:6
    But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
    Hebrews 8:13
    In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. This is the Word of God; that settles that.

    • Atheist Max says:

      Dick,

      I noticed you stopped mentioning blood after I asked you about your claim that Jesus sacrificed “His own blood.”

      You don’t owe me an answer about the blood.
      But anyone can string one claim onto another and get away with it if they are not challenged.

      If there is nothing you can tell me about the value of “Jesus’ own blood” and what is so special about it, there is no reason for a non-believer to get anything out of the rest of your message.

    • Todd says:

      This passage from 1 John 3:4-10 has troubled Christians for centuries. Do abiding Christians or those “born of God” really not sin? That seems what John is saying. Yet the long experience of believers is that people do sin after it would appear they are not only baptized, but have committed themselves in some significant way as a disciple. Are we able to point to a Christian sinner and say, “Ha! You are not yet born of God!”?

      In any event, it is irrelevant. People who sin may well not be born of God, but they may certainly still be disciples. Peter was a disciple, according to the Gospels, yet he denied the Lord.

      Confessing sin is part of the path for a believer in many Christian traditions. It matters not if the person does not abide in God–that’s the whole point: to get believers to be born in God.

      My sense is that John is stating an ideal that no mortal person has achieved in today’s world. The sacraments, focused and centered on Christ, inspiring discipleship and strong belief, and a stronger commitment to virtue, are wholly appropriate. Jesus himself said he came to seek the lost. If the Church focuses its sacramental mission on sinners, that is no discredit to anyone.

  10. Dick Martin says:

    Max. No.1 is correct. God see the end before the beginning. This was the plan before creation. He saw Adam and Eve’s fall; the flood of Noah; 400 yrs. in exile; parting the Red sea; Moses and the Law. All having a purpose to show we can’t save ourselves.
    Romans 3:22-26
    even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
    for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
    being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
    whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
    to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Propitiation means ( Totally satisfied). By His Blood. This was a covenant between God the Father and His Son agreed upon before Mary’s birth to Jesus. Righteousness is to be able to stand before a Holy God; pure and perfect. we can have that in this life , right now because it is written. ( Promised).

    • Atheist Max says:

      Dick,

      “God sees the end before the beginning.”

      Then why does God force us to go through all the motions
      if he already knows who will go to heaven and who will go to hell?

  11. Atheist Max says:

    Dick Martin,

    Okay.
    But what does this mean: “by His blood, through faith…” ?

  12. Dick Martin says:

    Max you responding before I can answer. God is all knowledge, Wisdom, Powerful, Can be everywhere at one time, etc. If He is who the Bible portrays Him to Be; I don’t question His Word. Jesus shed his blood. Without the shedding of Blood there is NO Redemption. The Power in His Blood is applying it to our situation. We do this by FAITH. Believing what God say’s about something and agreeing with Him. See how many times we are told to use the Name of Jesus. The Blood is evidence Of his sacrifice which is in Heaven. The Blood was evidence during the Passover to keep the death Angel from entering . Dick.

    • Atheist Max says:

      Dick,

      “The Blood was evidence”

      But how does this work? How does it stop or fix sins?
      What is special about the blood? That is what I’m trying to understand. Jesus’ mother was a human. Is his blood somehow infused mostly with God’s blood?
      But what is ‘god’s blood’?

  13. Dick Martin says:

    Todd: Jesus came to save us from our sins. If your born Again you have a New Nature, not the old sinful nature ( passed away) but the New Nature of our Father in Heaven. The Holy Spirit who is God lives in us we become the Temple of the Holy Spirit. We have no Condemnation. We are seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. No consciousness of Sin. God remembers our sins no More. We are numbered in the beloved. we obtained an inheritance. Sealed by the Holy spirit. God chose us before the foundation of the world. Made Grace to abound toward us. Given us the Gifts and the Fruits of the Spirit. Not under the Law of Sin and Death. etc. etc. etc. This is the reason sin is not put to our account or imputed to us. We are to walk according to the Spirit. Love in Christ Dick.

    • Todd says:

      Those are nice words, but the experience of Christianity is that human beings still commit sins, even committed Christians. We need all the encounter with Christ we can get. For Catholics and other Christians that happens through the sacraments. People have encountered the Lord in the Breaking of the Bread from the very earliest days, as well as in the other sacraments, including Penance.

  14. Dick Martin says:

    You think these are nice words but they are eternal life words; very serious words. The encounter with Jesus is thru His Spirit. Jesus said ” I must go back to the Father so I can send you the Comforter”. The Comforter is the 1/3 of the God Head who is on the Earth today. Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    Romans 6:5-11
    For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
    knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
    For he who has died has been freed from sin.
    Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
    knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. NOTICE: Likewise, reckon ( consider) yourself DEAD indeed to SIN. Jesus took our place on the cross and died for us. By not acknowledging the fact; (Confessing or agreeing with) God can’t apply the exchange. You must believe and confess to be saved. See Romans10:9.
    Hebrews 9:26
    He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

    • Todd says:

      More nice words, Dick, but they don’t really address my point, that the sacramental life of Christians is an encounter with Christ–see the entire experience of Luke 24:13-35 which has been repeated countless times through history.

      I’m well familiar with the Scriptures you cite, but they don’t address my core point: that Christians continue to sin after Baptism and acceptance of Christ. That doesn’t mean we aren’t dead to sin.

      I notice we are just talking past one another at this point. For two believers such as you and I who seem to be lacking a personal understanding, the Bible becomes just words.

      The crucifixion is central to Christianity, but no less so the Resurrection. Ascension, and the descent of the Holy Spirit.

  15. Dick Martin says:

    Of the Two believers mentioned; I know one is a believer; What do you believe? How do you receive atonement for your sin that will pass the Test. an encounter with Jesus ( His Name) Christ is His Title; is not what is required. Satan had an encounter with Jesus it didn’t save him. When Jesus was born of the Holy spirit He became one with God. When we become Born Again we become One With the Holy Spirit. No amount of Baptizing, sprinkling, confessing, absolving, penance, taking bread and wine, prayers, burning candles, Incense will save you. If you would Read the Instruction Manual ; It’s very Simple It last for eternity. The Apostle John states in
    1 John 5:10-13
    He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
    And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
    He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
    These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. May you have success in seeking Him in the new Year. Dick

    • Todd says:

      Again, Dick, you are failing to read carefully here. Your background, your training if you will, in evangelical Christianity has blinded you to your surroundings. I’ve written over and over again that sacraments and sacramentals do not save, but the experience facilitates grace in human ways–through the senses. And yet you persist in misreading me. Is that intentional?

      Quite often I get the idea in our discussions there is no person behind your side. A computer program could be latching onto key words and quoting a fundamentalist manual. I am obliged as a Christian believer to take you at your word, that you are a Christian. I am obliged as a disciple to imitate Jesus and to patiently discuss with you, despite my suspicions you may not even be a person. Because you do not always act as a person.

      Believer to believer, I would find your side of the conversation insulting and rude, except I’m not sure you are entirely competent in your presentation of the Bible. You lapse into inaccurate modernisms and greeting card lingo. One example: the Bible is not an instruction manual, even if you capitalize it, or use it in that way. It is far more. You attach a personal description that’s not particularly original and disrespect the Book you have placed at the center of your faith.

      In order to convince me you are a sincere Christian believer, you’re going to have to email me. Your commentary has veered into the condescending and insulting here. I’m not inclined to encourage a computer program that has memorized the Bible.

      Max is a real person, I’m pretty sure. Though I suspect he could be a teenager presenting as an adult atheist. You, I’m not sure about. You’re going to have to imitate the Christ of the Gospel, not the skeptical tv preacher.

  16. Dick Martin says:

    I mentioned sometime back that I was a devout Catholic. I attended a Charismatic Prayer group which was led by lifelong members of the local Catholic Church. I bought the book to follow in the ” Life in the Spirit Seminar”. The Book Had Seven week teaching written and approved by Leo A. Pursley, D.D. Bishop of Fort Wayne – South Bend. I even bought a Catholic Jerusalem Bible. I followed it to the T. It’s still available Today. I later ended up teaching the seminar for Two Years. On the Seventh Week it led us into ” The Baptism of the Holy Spirit” and the new Birth Experience. I keep Studying the Scriptures and was answering Questions that came up from comparing Catholic beliefs and what the Bible taught. Like Faith. Faith comes by hearing or studying the Word of God. Romans 10:17. It’s impossible to please God with out Faith. Faith is not belonging to the Catholic Church. this is the answer you get when you ask Catholic people about Faith. Remarks seem condescending and insulting because your understanding is not based on God’s Biblical Truth. God’s ways are not Man’s ways. The Lost have a veil over their understanding, which can only be removed by accepting Jesus and receiving His Benefits. Yes I have a lot of people behind me. The largest Congregation in the World in South Korea, over a million. Singapore 20,000 . Branson Mo. 10,000 . Houston Tex. 30,000. etc. 400 in my Non-denominational Church full of ex Catholic’s. In my county alone are over 30 Churches like mine. I speak in several on what I share with you are there’s no confusion. I am not a computer program. I believe what the scriptures teach and I believe Only God says it best. There is no second choice; you’ll either get Judgment or Mercy. based on Jesus’s work as the only Way, I chose MERCY. Join Me. God resists the proud, But gives Grace to the Humble.

    • Todd says:

      Thanks for the background, Dick. You say you’re not a computer program, and I am obliged to take that at face value. But you sure look like one sometimes. I can’t imagine you are effective as an evangelizer with your approach. You are condescending and insulting, but if that’s your one trick, good luck with that.

      I’m going to finish off this conversation with the observation that you don’t know me, you don’t read me carefully, and humility would seem to be totally at odds with your approach of distrust of me and other Christian believers who aren’t in one of your flocks of 20000, 10000, 30000 or 400. Happy new year, and God’s blessings on you where you find him.

      • Liam says:

        Todd, my perspective as a mostly-lurker in these dialogues, is that there’s a significant amount of ego in Dick’s approach on this blog, even with all the iterative copy-and-paste of Scripture passages (the use of the first person is not necessary to demonstrate this). The iterative posts are redolent of “I need to prove that I’ve witnessed”.

      • Todd says:

        Regarding, “I need to prove that I’ve witnessed,” that pretty much reduces me (or anyone else) from a person to a project. Even the Pharisee who came in the middle of the night got better treatment from the Lord.

  17. Atheist Max says:

    “Max is a real person, I’m pretty sure. Though I suspect he could be a teenager presenting as an adult atheist.”

    I doubt a teenager could come up with the sort of observations I have made as a 53 year old man.
    My discovery of my atheism happened, as you know, by accident and with brute force:

    I realized God cannot morally answer my personal prayer to save a dying child, while first ignoring the prayer of that dying child.

    The clarity that even an infinite God cannot accomplish this, was one of the great, painful shocks of my adult life.

    • Todd says:

      As you say, Max.

      Yet you remain pseudonymous–which I acknowledge is your choice. Yet it is a choice with certain consequences. You remain secretive as you actively and persistently engage dozens of people online, often with insulting and juvenile words, opinions, and presentations. You appear frozen with a child’s view of God and faith. You could be a kid. You could be an adult. Who knows?

  18. Atheist Max says:

    “You remain secretive……often with insulting and juvenile words”

    True.
    But I reserve all insult and fury against religion. Not believers themselves.
    I do not hate or insult believers. I am specifically careful not to do this because I know them so well. I was one of them – I was as much a believer in Jesus as anyone else.

    It would diminish me to accuse believers of being stupid.
    Believers are not stupid. Believers are NOT ignorant. Believers are NOT fools.

    Religion, as I hope you will agree, forces certain doors to shut – the word ‘faith’ needs only be invoked to cause the door to shut.
    The only difference between you and I is that I have been shocked to knock down that door – to blast through it – and it was not my choice, nor was it something I expected to ever happen.

    But having gone through it, I have new insights. Like someone who has come back from a journey.

    Atheism does NOT make me smarter than believers – I am no smarter than I was when I was a Christian.

    But I know something you perhaps don’t. I know what the world looks like when that faith door is blasted to bits – and looking back through that door at my old beliefs I now see what I thought was “good” is actually grossly disfigured and often terribly evil.

    • Atheist Max says:

      I am an Atheist who was a believer.
      I must add that I am not alone.

      4,000 churches close their doors every single year.
      There is less than half of the number of churches today than there were only 100 years ago.
      3,500 people leave the church every single day.

      These numbers are from Pew Research.

    • Todd says:

      Good morning, Max.

      It’s not entirely true you reserve your bile against religion. You remain deeply angry at God, in a personal way. You push buttons by insulting God, and you are smart enough to know it.

      Religion is a commitment, so in a sense, yes: some doors shut and other open. It is the nature of growth. A person gets married, takes a new job, buys a house, joins a club: in each of these situations some doors close, and others open.

      As for your second comment, numbers do not cause me dismay. Neither does the fact that you are not alone. You may feel alone on this site, and I respect your decision to come back to engage me. I’m not the easiest foil on the net.

      • Atheist Max says:

        Todd,

        Good morning.
        You say, “You remain deeply angry at God, in a personal way.”

        From your point of view it may appear that way. But I’m not upset with God at all.
        I would break it down differently from you.

        1. God, if he exists is unknowable so far. Specifically, humanity is literally in a death grip of disagreement about which god is the true god and which rules are the correct rules.

        2. Religion is what happens when people make a choice about which rules are correct and then practice them with absolute conviction.

        God is knowable only through personal revelation. This explains why there are so many religions in direct opposition to one another – the personal revelations vary enormously.
        My own personal revelation about God vanished and it appears to have been hallucination. Rather than put my trust in a new personal revelation, I simply distrust all such revelations until they can be explained as more than hallucinatory or delusional.

        As you can see, I’m not angry with God at all. He may exist and he may bring us all to Heaven someday regardless of belief in him – I don’t know.

        But Religion is different. Religion is the claim that “This particular set of rules is correct but the other sets of rules are evil.”

        If the miracle claims of one religion validate the truth of that “set of rules”, we cannot deny other religions their right to believe their miracles validate the truth of their own “sets of rules” which may conflict with the other rules.

        Islam, for example, claims to be the ‘final’ revelation of God.
        All unbelievers will go to Allah’s Hell unless they are saved by Jihad. The act of killing a Christian is an act of love by this definition – an act to save a soul. These are among the rules of this religion.

        To accept Jesus miracles by applying your ‘personal revelation’ necessarily means you cannot deny a Muslim from his own ‘personal revelation’ that Muhammed flew up into the Heaven on a white horse from the temple mount and Muhammed’s religion is validated – yet it is in direct conflict with Christianity.

        I hope you see the problem. If you agree that the Muslim’s ‘personal revelation’ is wrong or has led to a ‘wrong set of rules’ – then you have no leg to stand on regarding your own ‘personal revelation’.

        I’m looking past Christianity, and past my personal experiences with God beliefs.
        I’m looking at religion as a set of absolutist claims. No particular claim can be validated except through personal revelation.

        Christianity is such a set of claims. Once God vanishes the claims stand alone and are as devoid of meaning as a phone book.

      • Todd says:

        Well, Max, if you aren’t angry with God, your insulting comments are no more than bait for your foils. Teenage behavior.

      • Atheist Max says:

        What did I say which was insulting?
        I go to pains to not insult people.

        I do say Jesus (the character in the bible) is a despicable monster.
        I do say God (the character of the Bible) is a monster.

        But this should not be insulting to you. You are not Jesus or God.
        And you have repeatedly pointed out (If I recall) that you don’t believe in those characters anyway. You have a personal relationship with a different God from the one articulated in the Bible as you have said many times.

        “I shall bring evil to you…Your neighbor shall rape your wives with the sun looking down” – Yahweh (2 Sam 12:11)

        You have told me that discussing such quotes from this God are pointless because this god is not relevant to you – your relationship with Jesus is far superior to the revelations of such prophets as Samuel.

        I take your word for it. And I accept your answer.
        The God of the Bible is rather irrelevant to you – so why is it insulting to you if I find the God and Jesus of the Bible to be horrible?

  19. Dick Martin says:

    Max; Religion is not what God has in mind. God wants a relationship with each individual ; one on one. The Catholic Church try’s to meet our personal spiritual needs like running a business. they think you please God by doing Works to please Him. The real truth is that it’s what Jesus accomplished for us; and it’s a FREE gift. all you need to do is find out what the gift is and receive it. It’s as easy as opening a door and thanking Him for it. You claim that you were a Christian in your past. Did you ask Jesus to save you. His answer is always YES. Jesus never Reneges. If you change your mind later; it’s to late. The bible says that we need to change our mind after you become a Christian. The deception the Devil did to confuse you; are the things Jesus died for. your covered.There will be many Backslidden Christians who think they lost their way for what ever reason will find themselves in Heaven, and those who think they deserve Heaven will find themselves short. Qualifications to get into Heaven is WHO you know, not who you are and what you’ve done. Everyone’s NAME is written in the lambs book of Life. for God so loved the World that He GAVE His only ( planned before hand) Son that who ever receives Him shall have everlasting life. Go ahead ,feel bad, keep seeking you Savior ( past tense), Jesus has your back. If you’ve never received Him you name will be removed from the Lambs book of life. Once you die you destiny is sealed. Heaven or Hell. How you choose is the key. Jesus = life; No Jesus = eternal punishment. my prayer is a Perfect and with out blemish New Year For all. Dick.

  20. Atheist Max says:

    Dick Martin,

    “Once you die your destiny is sealed. Heaven or Hell.”

    Heaven is impossible and I’ll tell you why.
    There are many members of my family who I love and they are Atheists. So even if I converted back to Christianity and died and went to Heaven, I would not have my children with me – nor would my father or uncles be with me there. Nor would my cousins who are mostly Atheists.

    So if I went to Heaven, I would have to be changed in such a dramatic way that I did not feel bad for my loved ones in eternal Hell.

    I would have to altered in such a way that I could not care about my loved ones. For all of eternity.

    Hell may be possible. But Heaven is not possible.

  21. Dick Martin says:

    Max; This is one of your hard to deal with –( Jesus sayings). Loving and following Him will separate Families. God deals with each individual person-one on one. the best thing is to be Strong In Him and bring you family in with you. If you and your whole Family end up in Hell there won’t be any conversation between any one. you’ll be separated and everyone who’s there will HATE each other; for the simple reason that you did not share Jesus with them; you held back. If you go to heaven without them; your happiness will far out weigh your Loss. There will be no sorrow or tears in Heaven. I sense your Heart so you had better get BUSY. You’ll have plenty of help. This is the reason the Holy Spirit is on the Earth right at this moment. Scripture say’s that the Holy Spirit never speaks of Himself; Only about Jesus. His job is the wooo the lost to Jesus. He will be with you when you speak to your family members; one on one. No time to waste. Find someone to Help you. Every individual has to make the decision. Even the angles rejoice when One comes to the lord.

  22. Atheist Max says:

    Dick Martin,

    “Loving and following Him will separate Families……No time to waste. Find someone to Help you. Every individual has to make the decision.”

    I will gladly go to Hell to be with my family.
    I have no interest in an eternity in Heaven without my daughter and my son. And if God needs my children to be more loving than they already are, it is his loss.

    If this makes God sad, that is fine with me. Let God be sad in Heaven and I’ll be happy in Hell.

    Of course, if you are smart, You will say God can’t be sad in Heaven. It is HEAVEN – God cannot be unhappy in his glorious kingdom surrounded by the obedient flock.
    But if this is so, Then God has no feelings for all the millions who couldn’t figure out how to believe in him. I wouldn’t want to be with God at all if he has no feelings for the suffering his system has caused.

    Enjoy your God.
    On your present course, He’ll be the only thing you have.

    Doesn’t it hurt you that God doesn’t care how this turns out for anyone?

  23. Dick Martin says:

    Max; This is exactly why God sent Jesus to pay for all your faults; your sins, even your family’s inability to figure it out. It’s actually very simple. Man makes and has made the choice to neglect His Love. He sent His Son to cover all your mistakes. All you have to do is believe He took it upon himself- your Punishment . And you will not come into Judgment but pass from death into life. You are applying more Faith to what the Devil is telling you (Deception) than believing What God has Provided.
    Romans 1:18-25
    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
    because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
    For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
    because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
    Professing to be wise, they became fools,
    and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
    Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
    who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

  24. Atheist Max says:

    Dick Martin,

    You have worked yourself up into a panic. You are ready to blame non-believers for part of this worldwide crisis you are imagining.

    The Bible is extremely effective at persuading people they are witnessing something real
    yet as your posts demonstrate – it is all delusional.

    I have written a lot about how God vanishes and re-appears while you read the Bible:

    https://atheistmax.wordpress.com/2015/01/03/dangerous-thought-9-god-vanishes-when-you-make-decisions-about-the-bible-but-he-reappears-to-affirm-your-decision/

  25. Dick Martin says:

    MAX: Do you believe the BOMB was dropped on Japan? You weren’t there; or that the Holocaust Really happened. most libraries have on file articles and pictures of the events but you still have to believe by FAITH since you did not see the occurrences in person. are they Delusional? When you read the bible and believe in the God of creation It’s all by faith. I’ve been to the Holy Land and have seen historical and archaeological proof which confirms my Faith. The Scripture; Romans 1:18 is stating that you see from God’s creation that He exists. the slime and goo has produced nothing as scientists believe. As complicated as creation is; only God could have produced it. So you will be with out an excuse. The Bible is the most accurate book ever written. Don’t believe everything Al Gore tells you.

  26. Atheist Max says:

    Dick Martin,

    “MAX: Do you believe the BOMB was dropped on Japan? You weren’t there; or that the Holocaust Really happened.”

    Yes, I do believe these things – because of overwhelming evidence.

    “you still have to believe by FAITH since you did not see the occurrences in person.”

    NO. I don’t have any faith.
    The evidence can be verified by multiple parties and they can be checked and re-checked falsified.

    “When you read the bible and believe in the God of creation It’s all by faith.”
    Faith means there is no evidence. That is why I don’t believe ‘faith’ is a useful method for anything. Faith is the opposite of evidence.

    “I’ve been to the Holy Land and have seen historical and archaeological proof which confirms my Faith.”
    You have the right to believe your religion. I’m not telling you that you must change your mind.
    I am only asking questions and answering other questions here. I do not believe there is one speck of proof regarding Jesus – if the proof were so clear, there would not be any Muslims or Jews in the Holy Land. You don’t need Atheists to point out that Jesus is a legend. Just ask someone of another religion and they will tell you.

    “The Scripture; Romans 1:18 is stating that you see from God’s creation that He exists.”
    If the Bible were proof of the Christian God, there would be no other religions in the world. Muslims would agree with you – if they agreed with you.

    “The slime and goo has produced nothing as scientists believe.”
    Not true. But it is clear you are not interested in the science.

    “As complicated as creation is; only God could have produced it.”
    Not true. Besides, who created god. You are trying to solve one mystery by creating a second mystery. Not very satisfying or convincing.

    ” So you will be with out an excuse.”
    I know. According to you, I would be going to Hell.

    “Don’t believe everything Al Gore tells you.”
    Actually, according to your own methodology you should call Al Gore a prophet. More of his predictions have come true than any that Jesus made.
    Everything Al Gore predicted 20 years ago is coming true regarding climate change. Humans are ruining the earth climate. Of course he isn’t a prophet. He’s just a person who understands the science.

  27. Dick Martin says:

    It takes more Faith to believe there is no God than He does exists. You’ve got Faith alright– Big Time. I see your on the same intellect as Al Gore since there has been no man made climate change. Going to Hell is your choice ; it’s not according to me. I love science; It Proves nothing about our origins. We were created out of nothing but FAITH. God spoke and there it is.

    • Atheist Max says:

      “It takes more Faith to believe there is no God”

      No. It takes strength, empathy and honesty to face the truth that god is not likely to exist.
      Notice that I am saying ‘not likely’.

      Allah is not likely.
      Mohammed was most likely wrong about Allah.
      Ganesha is not likely to be real.
      Vishnu is not likely to be real.
      Zeus is not likely to be real.
      Yahweh is not likely to be real
      Yeshua is not likely to be real
      Thor is not likely to be real

      You get the idea.
      I am only responding to your comment about faith.
      There is no ‘faith’ in saying ‘mermaids are unlikely to be real though many people claim to have seen them – I think they are hallucinating. Don’t you?

  28. Dick Martin says:

    None of your gods have any historical or archaeological accept Jesus. Allah is a pagan Moon God. maybe made out of cheese. Has no love in his heart. Hindu every thing is a god and their starving because they can’t kill animals. Buddha is made of stone. Zeus is fiction, Thor was a terrorist. like some we know of today.

    • Atheist Max says:

      Those other gods were believed just as much as you believe in your god today.

      Do you know that the Holy Ghost is no longer considered real? It has been replaced by the “Holy Spirit” which seems just as vague and uncertain.

  29. Dick Martin says:

    Ephesians 1:13-14
    In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. The proof is inside of me. The Holy Spirit living inside of me happened when I asked Him to come In and resides in Me. As he promised ,He did just that and you can’t take my experience away. I was sealed with The Holy Spirit of Promise. His presence is my Guarantee of my Inheritance.

    • Todd says:

      Few experiences of the presence of Christ are more profound than when Christians encounter the Lord in the sacraments, especially in the Eucharist.

      • Atheist Max says:

        Todd,

        “Few experiences are more profound than when Christians encounter the Lord in the sacraments, especially in the Eucharist.”

        I agree. I often wept when I received the Eucharist.

        And even though I do not believe in God at all anymore – I can still go up and receive the Eucharist and weep with joy. I tried it at my brother’s wedding last month in Florida.

        My emotions were the same – joyous – but the difference was that it felt like a strong gratitude for the presence of other humans (rather than god) and it was very beautiful.
        But no, I cannot believe a god has anything to do with these emotions – because I brought them on myself. And I can recreate it at any time.

        And I can have it whenever I want it. I feel amazing Peace and Joy for humanity very often – especially when I push Jesus and God out of my mind.

    • Atheist Max says:

      Dick,

      “As he promised ,He did just that and you can’t take my experience away.”

      I cannot take it away. And I do not want to take it away.
      I only ask questions and answer questions as honestly as I can.

      I cannot believe in the Holy Spirit anymore because what I thought was the Holy Spirit in my heart could easily have just been my own desire to see the Holy Spirit in a warm feeling I had.

      I still have the warm feeling. I can feel the Holy Spirit in the same way I did when I was a believer in it – I can recreate the feeling – Yet I do not believe in a Holy Spirit at all. So I figure it must be something non-religious at work on my emotions or in my mind.

  30. Dick Martin says:

    Max; What a cop out; Keep denying His presents won’t change His influence on your God owned Spirit. You gave your self to Him when you were younger and He says He will NEVER leave you or forsake you. God does not Renege on His promises. You know He’s right there and the proof is in His living in you (PRESENTS). Stop dragging you feet.

  31. Atheist Max says:

    Dick Martin,

    “He will NEVER leave you or forsake you.”

    Are you saying I don’t have free will?

    So I don’t have free will to shrug off god and dismiss his promise of Heaven?
    Then, why do I need to believe in him? Looks like I can just ignore god all my life and still go to Heaven.

    Is that how it works?

    • Todd says:

      You asked if this is how it works? Probably not. You are free to accept or dismiss God as you wish. You and I have had this discussion before: it is human free will. God respects it, even when it leads to tragedy.

      • Atheist Max says:

        I don’t know why Dick is missing your important point.
        I have seen countless Christians with completely opposing positions and I’m convinced they are getting their information from their own feelings and not some reliable authority.

        I guess the bottom line is, everything anyone can claim about Christianity is true if you ‘feel’ that it is true. If I’m wrong, I’d like to see an Authoritative disputation.

      • Todd says:

        Dick may or may not be missing the point. Christians may have completely opposing positions or they may not. If one assumes perfection once one aligns with Jesus, I suppose it’s all rather confusing. I prefer to interpret it as misunderstanding, misinformation, disagreement, or some human flaw.

        I don’t think you or Dick are very close readers to what I write. In that way you two are virtually identical.

      • Atheist Max says:

        “I don’t think you or Dick are very close readers to what I write. In that way you two are virtually identical.”

        Dick, Todd says we are identical.

        What information am I missing?
        Every time I ask a question I am instructed that I don’t understand something.
        I would rather get an answer to my question. Don’t you think that would help me understand better?
        I wouldn’t know how to ‘accept god’ anymore than I would accept a refrigerator for a father.

        What am I accepting?
        If I type the words: “I accept Jesus” what does that mean?
        Am I accepting his preachings? All of them? But they are discrepant.
        Am I accepting ‘the feeling that I am a Christian’? What does that mean if it doesn’t come with the preachments?

  32. Dick Martin says:

    God says; ” My ways are not your ways. God sees you life from beginning to end. He knew right where you are right at this moment before He created everything. Every choice you made and you will ever make, leads you to one conclusion. What did you do with my Son ‘Jesus”? If your answer does not lead you to Jesus He lets your keep messing up until you get it right. That’s what the Law is for to show you that you can’t keep them. went you offend the law it brings condemnation.
    1 Timothy 1:9-10
    knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, Not made for a righteous person. ( One who has Jesus’s Righteousness accounted to their account. After your Righteous in God’s sight you can’t offend Him in any way.
    Romans 8:1-2
    There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
    For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
    It tells us that the saved has no condemnation and we are under a different Law. The bible tells us that we are IN Christ and we are SEALED and PRESERVED . Sin in our lives has been dealt with, once and for all and forever. We are a Three Part being : 1- we’re a Spirit; 2-We have a Soul; 3- We live in a body. God made us in His Image and Likeness; God is a Spirit, we are a Spirit. We have a Soul which is our Mind, Intellect, Emotions, Consciences. Basically our computer, which stores memories of the good and the bad. were to throw out all the bad and build o the Good. Our bodies were made the last forever. they are just suits our spirits live in while were on the earth. Romans 8:9-11
    But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
    And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
    But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. while were on the earth.

    • Atheist Max says:

      Dick,
      God says; “My ways are not your ways.”

      Okay – You lost me with this claim right there.
      Dick, you are not appreciating how unhelpful it is if you don’t answer my questions.

      If God’s ways are so different, how can anyone claim to know anything about God?
      Which of “my ways” are not “God’s ways”?
      The way I walk? The way I listen? The way I think?

      If God doesn’t listen the way I listen, how am I supposed to talk to him? I can’t use words!
      Do I use thoughts instead? But if his thoughts don’t function as mine how does he see my thoughts as they don’t work like my thoughts?

      Which of God’s ways do we know about? Any? Then they must be intelligible enough to sort out how they differ from our ways.

      But then you have a contradiction: If God’s ways are not our ways they are by definition completely and totally unintelligible!

      If God’s ways are so different from your ways, how do you know whether you are doing anything the way God told you to?

      Dick, your words literally do not mean anything.
      It literally means nothing to say: “My ways are not your ways”

      You are describing a God which is so unintelligible that we cannot even know if we should call Him/Her/It a God at all.

  33. Dick Martin says:

    Max; I would have to share with you the complete Bible with you. God deals with so many different Conditions, of different Peoples, at different times,, with different covenants. Are you saved or do you need saved? Don’t mix the message of how God deals with the unsaved with the Redeemed. God still applies the Law, Works, self righteous, to the unsaved which results in Eternal punishment. If your Saved ( Born Again), you are a child of God . you have an inheritance in the Family. God gives you a new Nature and removes the Old sinful Nature . You are NOT Judged by the Law or Works or your own efforts. We have all sinned and fallen short of the Kingdom. We CAN’T save ourselves. This Pride in ourselves is why we can’t HUMBLE ourselves to put our condition in Jesus hands and let Him ( which He has already Done For everyone) take care of it. Jesus is all that God wants for you. You should know where you fit into which category . These questions can not be answered in a sentence or paragraph . your statements show me where you are. You don’t understand ; My ways are not your ways.; God want Seekers to be revealed the hidden things that are made clear when your heart is seeking Him. Start fellowshipping with people who can spend time with you; those who have found the truth. Catholics don’t know the truth. ask a nondenominational pastor or a member of a bible believing Church. You say that my words don’t mean a thing to you– These words are not my words there God’s Words. The bible says that when you are born from above you have spiritual understanding. ( Discernment). Only in the Epistles we find God’s instructions for us today.

    • Atheist Max says:

      Dick,

      “I would have to share the complete bible with you..”

      I’ve read the complete Bible already.
      The difference is, You seem to believe most of it is true and I can’t seem to believe any of it.

      You probably don’t believe the Bible where it explains how the world is flat.
      or where is says bats are a kind of bird.
      or where God thought the whales were without sin.
      or where the resurrection of saints walked through Jerusalem (Matthew 27:52)

      See, if hundreds of people could rise from the dead
      and walk around in Jerusalem (Matthew 27:52) yet they were not Gods…
      then that would mean that the resurrection of Jesus would be meaningless.

      Why else would Jesus rise from the dead?
      He was God, right? Isn’t that what the resurrection proved?

      But if rising from the dead proves Jesus is God, then all those hundreds of other people must have been Gods also (Matthew 27:52).

      The Bible argues against its own claims like this – that is why so many of us Atheists are leaving religion. Even if the Bible were true, it describes things so incoherently that it has no way to be understood. That is a shocking thing for me to discover when I was a Christian.

      Even if the Bible is true, it is too incoherent to mean what it says it means.

    • Atheist Max says:

      Dick Martin,

      Since you brought up, “God said…My Ways are not our ways…” (Isaiah 55:8)
      I have tried to elaborate about it on my blog.

      How is it possible for Isaiah’s claim to be true, if the claim is TRUE?

      If you are interested
      perhaps you can explain the paradox to me.

      (Click ATHEIST MAX to be taken to my blog)

  34. Dick Martin says:

    max; When you are born of the flesh,, because of Adam’s rebellion ; all of mankind is now under the Nature of their Father Satan. We inherit his Nature not Adam’s sin. Everyone Has the satanic Nature. It is natural to do and think His way. Just like you inherit traits from your natural fleshly Father. the Bible says that you don’t understand His way because your still have you fleshly Nature. At this point your way are not God’s way. There are choices ( ways to chose) , Life or death; The bible also says ” There is a way which seems right unto a man but the end is everlasting Death. This is what Jesus said to Nicodemus ” to be able to get into Heaven you must be Born again. Once you attained this condition ” your ways become God’s way. I don’t recall any where that the Bible say’s the Earth is flat. It does say that the Earth is round.
    Isaiah 40:22)
    It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, The Bat it says “after it’ kind”. after it names birds. Jonah was a Picture of Jesus , and the Whale was liken to the Grave. Jonah was in the belly of a great fish , three days and nights. Jesus was in the belly of the Grave three days and nights. Jesus had no Sin. and was the first human to rise from the Grave. There was so much Power went out that it brought out the Dead at that moment. It didn’t mean that everyone was a God. This is one of the reasons that Jesus came to Earth to defeat death for us.

    • Atheist Max says:

      Dick,

      If I were a priest reading your comments I would want to talk to you and help you sort out your view of Christianity. Certainly some priests out there must regret their encouragement of so much magical thinking.

      Religion is quite a free-for-all.

      I have to wonder why otherwise sensible priests don’t stop in their tracks in shock when they read your words and see what they have wrought in these discrepant teachings.

  35. Dick Martin says:

    Priests don’t study the Bible in seminary. They read and study the Catholic way. which is not God’s way. Nothing I share with you or Todd make any sense because you only using your Un-renewed Minds. The bible say’s that you can’t understand spiritual things because you have the Natural mind and to be able to understand you must be Born from above; which is what happens when you accept Jesus and his Redemption.
    1 Corinthians 2:10-14
    But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
    For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
    Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
    These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. I keep going over and over this and you don’t believe it; When you get it you will understand it. It’s not MAGICAL or a DISCREPANT teaching; It’s the Word of God . Rejection of this will be used against you at the final judgment. Actually with out Jesus on your side you are judged already .. Jesus is your ticket to ride. don’t fall for anything LESS.

    • Todd says:

      Actually, Dick, you have no idea what you’re talking about. Produce my grad school transcript, or the full list of seminary course offerings to prove your assertion. Otherwise, you’ll have to concede you just pulled it out of a dark place, or from a Protestant minister who him or herself needs some schooling.

      I would say that most clergy and Catholic lay ministers have a better understanding of the Bible than most evangelical Protestants.

    • Liam says:

      “Nothing I share with you or Todd make any sense because you only using your Un-renewed Minds.”

      If that is indeed true, arguendo, then there is no objective point to your sharing thus with Todd or Athiest Max. Moreover, there’s no need to sharing with people with Renewed Minds because they already would understand. Your statement admits that your sharing has no connection to the renewal of minds as you conceive it.

      As I see it, however, the problem for anyone making arguments in this way is that are predicated on undetailed epistemological and metaphysical assumptions that are not congruent between arguer and reader. Arguers attempting to witness in blog comboxes appear to imagine they are Peter in Acts 2:14-41,or Paul in Acts 17:16-34. But they aren’t in a situation of encountering readers (at least here) who’ve not encountered the Good News or Christian lives lived – rather, they are much more likely to encounter readers who’ve found the Good News – and Christian lives lived – more equivocal than promised or even worse. Preachers today face something Peter and Paul did not – a history of Christian failures. (The “failure” of the Cross was not the same thing.) If these preachers don’t realize they have to account for different contextual realities in their preaching, their preaching becomes more of a *work* for the ego than authentic witness, and in that way actually *gets in the way* of God.

  36. Atheist Max says:

    Dick Martin,

    You said, “The bible say’s that you can’t understand spiritual things because you have the Natural mind and to be able to understand you must be Born from above”

    If all answers are not in the Bible why use scripture to preach?

    “Born from above” indicates God must act on you – which negates free will.
    “Because you have the natural mind” indicates we are all born differently, some destined to Heaven already – which negates universal sinfulness of humanity.

    These things are all very incoherent.

  37. Dick Martin says:

    Todd ; If Catholics think they use the bible to keep truth running in a straight line your false teachings show otherwise. I could make a looooong List of none biblical doctrine. Catholics are like all other cult religions; following the teachings of man, Traditions of a man which has nothing to do with God’s Way. Tradition is acceptable when it expounds the meaning of scriptures but does not change it. All true followers and believers who have had the Heart Change can see the difference from afar off. It is so obvious it almost slaps you in the face. Should not someone put up a warning sign on the road to destruction. I personally live to show the right way. Not just to Catholics but Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Buddhists, Jews, There are even denominational Churches that don’t know the truth. When you stand before Jesus at your Judgment it going to be His way; ( The Bible Way) ; Not your Way. Liam; Only when you turn to Jesus can you understand. You think that 3 mo. old babies can understand and have the ability to believe the Message. Every individual has to make a free will decision per individual . The Bible Teaches This. The Catechism does not. The Pope thinks that the Islamists can attain heaven.–Not.
    2 Corinthians 3:13-17
    unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.
    But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
    But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
    Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
    Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. Max; All Scripture is all you need to live by. It is God’s instruction to us today.
    2 Timothy 3:16-17
    All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
    that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. God has Finished His work; He has Made you a promise that you must act on. He has made provision for you ; it’s in your ball park now.

    • Atheist Max says:

      Dick Martin,

      You said, “Catholics are like all other cult religions; following the teachings of man, Traditions of a man which has nothing to do with God’s Way.”

      Dick, wouldn’t you agree that all holy books are written by men?
      God didn’t write the books – men did. And men are imperfect so their interpretations and musings about god must be imperfect also.

      Holy books are actually secular creations.

      • Atheist Max says:

        Dick,

        Would you not agree with this?

        Man is imperfect.
        Holy books are written by men.
        Holy books are therefor imperfect.

        If God exists and is perfect, the Holy Books written about God must be flawed.

        I don’t believe God is real – but who knows, a god may exist.
        If so, the Bible is not relevant. The Bible is a secular document.

    • Todd says:

      Dick, the only thing I can say to your post is that I do not recognize Catholicism in what you write. You are talking past not only me, but just about every Catholic I know. Additionally, you have false information. I think you will find your efforts to write and speak in this manner frustrating in the sense of being convincing, but perhaps personally edifying in that you are certainly persistent in your condemnations.

      • Atheist Max says:

        “You are talking past not only me, but just about every Catholic I know.”

        I’m fascinated that such profoundly discrepant positions do not eliminate Dick from “the Fold.” It appears there is no way to pin down what constitutes a true Christian.

        If this is the case, why isn’t an Atheist just as worthy of heaven as a non-believer?
        And if everything is acceptable – what use are religious rituals and protocols?

      • Todd says:

        “If this is the case, why isn’t an Atheist just as worthy of heaven as a non-believer?”

        It’s not my call. That’s up to God.

        “And if everything is acceptable – what use are religious rituals and protocols?”

        Liturgy is a means to an end. It is not the idol.

  38. Dick Martin says:

    Max; Written By Men but Inspired by God. as stated in the scripture quote above. This happens every day. It’s happening right now. I don’t expect you to understand . The Bible has proven itself for thousands of yrs. Man has tried to burn all the evidence ; it’s still around. People have tried to discredit it by doing what you do – pick at it about ” the earth is flat ; whales that sin; etc. duh. You know a lot of Catholics; are they Atheists ? Atheist are non- believers . you have to be a Believer to make it. Brilliant comment. My description of What constitutes the making of a Christian I have shared already . Romans 10: 8-10. Todd: It’s true you and Catholics as a whole don’t get it. exactly what the Devil wants; For you to think your on the right path. Quote ” there is a path which seems right into a man but the end is eternal Death.”. You need to break it down to seeking what the bible teaches vs. what the Catholic Church teaches. Scripture quotes God in saying it a choice of LIFE or DEATH. Then God helps you chose ;” Chose Life”. If you were taught this in Grad and Seminary you would be in agreement with Me. So obvious you were only taught Catholic False Doctrine. Is there any Condemnation in the Catholic theology? Max ; everyone is written in the book of LIFE. Anyone who does not accept Jesus , His name is erased upon your Death. With out Jesus you are condemned already. call on Him before you take your last breath.

    • Atheist Max says:

      Dick,
      The God you describe seems to not mind sending everyone into a panic to avoid Hell. Does God not know that panic is not a way for people to arrive at good decisions?

      Todd,
      “Liturgy is a means to an end. It is not the idol.”
      What is wrong with calling it idolatry if the end is the same?

      • Todd says:

        I don’t believe the end is the same. And besides, means are vital. They are part of the essential relationship with God.

  39. Dick Martin says:

    Max; No, He gives you free will and an instruction Book. If you follow the Instructions there will be no panic. it’s as simple as; there are two sides of the fence . are you on the right side. If there is panic you’ve chosen it.

    • Atheist Max says:

      Dick,

      “If you follow the Instructions there will be no panic.”

      The panic is created by trying to follow the instructions.

      “It’s true you and Catholics as a whole don’t get it. exactly what the Devil wants…”

      You are claiming that you are following the correct instructions and that Todd is not.
      You base that on the book you say you are following.
      Todd bases it on another set of criteria where the book is not the ‘set of instructions’ but a minor part of it.

      Correct me if I’m wrong but I think Todd sees the “correct religion” in a more impressionist way – as a combination of Liturgy, rituals, discussions of theology, speculation about God, immersion in the history of the Catholic teachings and this plus a strong loyalty to God adds up to a testimony of sorts and a close relationship with God (or Jesus – i’m not sure if there is a difference). My own Catholicism and love of the church was in some ways similar.

      I’m guessing many Hasidic Jews, devout Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist Monks etc.. are doing a similar thing – history of the religion has a lot to do with the appeal. There is a history of others who had faith and claimed benefits from that faith – there is a comfort in familiar and familial connections and routines.

      A very old religion comes with centuries of apparent validation. I fail to see a real God at the heart of any of them however.

      Like the Japanese Tea Rituals or the Cult of Athena – cultural behaviors can carry on for thousands of years in a very rigid pattern long beyond the point where anyone knows why they are doing it.

      We get the word Thursday from the day of worship for the God Thor. Nobody believes in Thor anymore – but we still spell out the day “Thursday” and wouldn’t think to change it.
      Many rituals are equally as empty as far as I can tell.

  40. Dick Martin says:

    Religion is not what Gad wants but a Personal relationship with everyone. Liturgy, Ritual ‘ Theology, Speculation about God, History, etc. You Shall have no other Gods before Me. To believe and agree that not only that He exist but Who He is and what is His Plan for everyone. God is not interested in Sacrifice for Sin. Jesus accomplished That.
    Hebrews 10:8-14
    Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law),
    then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
    By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
    And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
    But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
    from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
    For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. Catholics offer the ” Sacrifice of the Mass” for the Sins of the People Daily. In the quote of Hebrews above states that Jesus is the one and only Sacrifice needed to Redeem Us; He did it Once ,for All , for ever. This is a Gift Freely given , signed , sealed and delivered. The Catholics are proclaiming a Daily sacrifice is needed When the scriptures state otherwise.

  41. Atheist Max says:

    “God is not interested in Sacrifice for Sin.”

    Are you 100% certain of what God is not interested in?
    I’m amazed that people could claim to know such a thing from a supposedly unknowable god “whose ways are not our ways” (Isaiah). But put that aside for a moment.

    If God does not require sacrifices from us, then he is really asking nothing of us at all.
    Is that really what you mean to be saying?

  42. Dick Martin says:

    Jan. 8th. was my quote about;
    Isaiah 55:6-9
    Seek the Lord while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.
    Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the Lord, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
    “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
    “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. I never said that God’s way are not our ways. It’s Your way, not our way. At some point in our lives all our ways are not God’s way. When you do the one thing that God ask us to do; which is being born from above, then the statement in Isaiah could read My Ways are your ways. Before (born again) you don’t belong to Him. After you are born again you do belong to Him Sacrifices from us , God does not want. What would the sacrifice be? For what reason? Sacrifice is an offering you do to appease God for your Sins. When you receive Jesus ; He offered Himself in your place as an appeasement for your sins. He was your substitute. “It is finished ” has been declared over you personally. No more sacrifices are required.

    • Atheist Max says:

      “Before (born again) you don’t belong to Him.”

      Then why am I accountable to him?
      And what was the purpose of my baptism if I still don’t belong?

      Why are there so many hoops to jump through and what do you get at the end of it that I don’t already have?

  43. Dick Martin says:

    1 John 4:1-3
    Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
    By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
    and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. This states that if you deny Jesus and His mission that you are not His. You don’t belong to Him. Your not in the Family or a Child of God. You are accountable to your own agreement or refusing . God has done His part to provide you with Everlasting Life with Him. It’s your choice.
    Romans 8:9
    But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. You can be His . Pray a prayer of believing and agreement in what Jesus accomplished. all praying is; is a conversation with God.

  44. Dick Martin says:

    Your absolutely correct. Without Jesus your doomed. There is no other God to turn to. God looks on the heart ( What you truly believe.). I like to parallel comparing a man looking for a wife and a man seeking God. The Wife seeker finds a lady who he spends time with. they go out to movies, dinners, drives in the country, They find out about their likes and dislikes. They could become just good friends or they might say to each other ” I Love You”. let’s get married. this is the moment that they become ONE with each other. they arrange a place to exchange vows about what they have had taken place in their heart already. They invite all their friends and relatives to witness their commitment to each other. You exchange rings as an outward sign of what happened earlier in your heart. This is what Baptism is and it’s meaning. You are seeking a personal relationship with God. You spend time with Him and you get to know each other. You experience God’s love , His grace, His Mercy, His plan ( destiny ) for you, you find out about all His benefits for you. God see your repentant Heart. Eventually you fall in love and you become One with each other at that moment . You are at that moment Born again. This is where Baptism comes into the picture. You arrange a place and invite all your relatives and friends to publicly witness your commitment you made to God about your love for each other. You publicly exchange vows and you live happily eternally. being put under the water is the outward sign of what has happened in your Heart. Baptism is the outward sign of your commitment you made to Jesus in your Heart previously. The act of Water Baptism can not save anyone.

    • Atheist Max says:

      It seems to me that someone could live his or her entire life without any of this and they would be fine.

      All the random claims seem arbitrary and contradictory – other Christians claim different things from your claims.

      There seems to be no provable virtue in any particular course of action.

  45. Dick Martin says:

    If being fine is eternal misery and pain and heartache ; it seems to you. It all make perfect sense to those who have the Creator and Author of all creation living inside you; as promised. If you and these other so called Christians can’t understand it’s because your not abiding with the Holy Spirit; which is the Spirit of Jesus. Proof is in the pudding.
    Ephesians 1:13-14
    In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
    who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. We were sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise Who is our Guarantee. He proves this by his living in us .

    • Atheist Max says:

      Dick,

      “If you and these other so called Christians can’t understand it’s because your not abiding with the Holy Spirit”

      See, when you say “Abiding with”… that just makes me think of your geography.
      If you had grown up in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan you would be saying “surrender to”

      How is “abiding with” a Holy Spirit different from “surrendering to” an Allah?
      That is really the problem I’m having.

      Are these different words for the same thing?
      I mean – the method of access to the each god is exactly the same so how can one god be more true than another?

  46. Dick Martin says:

    Allah is a ancient Pagan Moon God. You can go out and stare at the Moon all you want but there won’t be any abiding . Have you noticed the crescent moon on all their buildings. Abiding is not cutting off heads or severing arms and legs, killing your wife if you have a reason too.

    • Atheist Max says:

      Dick,

      “Allah is a ancient Pagan Moon God”
      Of course. But Allah (the All) is a complete plagiarism of Yahweh, god of Abraham. So you are not doing your argument any favors.

      But you also know that Yahweh is based on ancient pagan Egyptian and Hellenistic Gods – too, right? Killing women and children to preserve honor is always present in Pagan rituals – and Yahweh ordered the same things.

      YAHWEH SAYS FATHERS MUST BURN DAUGHTERS TO DEATH AS HONOR KILLINGS.
      “And the daughter…if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.” (Leviticus 21:9)

      Dick,
      ALL gods are based on pagan creations – even Jesus.

      The Dyonisis religion of antiquity is almost identical to the New Testament versions of Jesus. Even in the phenomenon of bread and wine and transubstantiation.

      The similarities with pagan cults merging into Dyonisis and then morphing into Christianity in the first century are astounding.

      • Atheist Max says:

        “O Dionysus, Son of God,
        do you see our sufferings?
        Do you see your faithful
        in helpless agony before the oppressor?
        O Lord, come down from Olympus,
        … stifle the murderer’s insolent fury.”
        ― Euripides, The Bacchae

        Dick.
        Imagine how they prayed to Dionysus. How they believed – how convinced they were that the son of god would SAVE THEM.

        There was no doubt in these men. Just as there is no doubt in you regarding Jesus.
        Something to think about.

    • Atheist Max says:

      Dick,

      This is obvious pagan mythology from the Bacchae
      and it predates the Jesus stories :

      “Next came Dionysus, the son of the virgin,
      bringing the counterpart to bread: wine
      and the blessings of life’s flowing juices.
      His blood, the blood of the grape,
      lightens the burden of our mortal misery.
      Though himself a God, it is his blood we pour out
      to offer thanks to the Gods. And through him, we are blessed.”
      ― Euripides, The Bacchae

      A God of holy blood, wine, and son of a virgin – this was Dionysus not Jesus.
      He died and he returned, just like so many other gods.

      Jesus was a plagiarism of many pagan stories.

      It is time to confront all religions and ask the important questions so that we can believe in things which are true rather than things which are merely claimed to be true.

    • Atheist Max says:

      Are you ready to agree with C.S. Lewis and apply his lazy methodology?

      Dionysus – son of God – was either Liar, Lunatic or Lord.

      Or are you ready to admit that Dionysus was just ‘legend’?

  47. Atheist Max says:

    “This town must learn,
    even against its will, how much it costs
    to scorn a God’s mysteries and to be purged.
    So shall I vindicate my virgin mother
    and reveal myself to mortals as a God,
    the son of God.” – Dionysus
    ― Euripides, The Bacchae

    “They went into a Samaritan village..The people there would not receive him…James and John…asked Jesus, ‘Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to burn them up?’ But Jesus turned to them. He told them that they had a wrong attitude. So, they went to another village.” (Luke 9:51)

    “The people in other towns and villages would not receive the disciples….the people in these places would not believe the gospel. The disciples must warn these people that God will punish them. To show this, the disciples must wipe the dust of that place from their feet. (Luke 10:8)

  48. Dick Martin says:

    Max: Are you noticing there are no more comments. Probably because you have made up your mind that there is no God. If you’ve been observing the message and you still refuse to acknowledge God is real. then it is sealed for eternity . God knows that you may change your mind about Him before you pass. that’s when you free will to choose ends. God so loved Max that He gave his only begotten Son ; that if you believe you have everlasting LIFE. Not Death ( cut off forever from the only one who loves you with zoe kind of love.) Your not stupid. you have a scientific mind. You need a born again spiritual mind to understand spiritual things. God promises that if you seek Him with your heart, you will find Him.

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